Why Catholic Schools Matter More Than Ever in the Education Debate

Nathan Sanders: Welcome back to Sunday School Choice, where faith meets education freedom. My name is Nathan Sanders, your host, and I’m with EdChoice. I’m a policy and advocacy director with Ed Choice.

And today, I’m so happy to have my friend, my partner, Mr. Shawn Peterson. Shawn is with the Catholic Education Partners, and I’m just gonna let him talk briefly, quickly, on who he is, what he does, and what his organization does. So, Shawn, take us away.

Shawn Peterson: Great, thanks, Nathan. Hey, really a pleasure to be here, and it’s good to be with a good friend and get so many good chances around the year to get to see you different places. So, yeah, just a little bit about what Catholic Education Partners is.

We were founded in 2017, and really with the idea that Catholic schools really are the largest sort of system, if you will, outside of traditional public schools that are the largest provider of private education as sort of a group. And there wasn’t really a Catholic voice in the education choice space. Obviously, there were some state-level, you know, our state Catholic conferences and others, and the USCCB on federal issues, but there wasn’t one organization really dedicated to sitting down at the table with groups like, you know, with Ed Choice and Excel in Ed and AFC and others to really be the Catholic voice at that table.

And as we always kind of kid, like, you know, if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu, right? So we thought we better get at the table. And so really that’s the whole purpose of our organization is really to represent the Catholic church in these school choice discussions, but also to be a good partner, not just to be there for ourselves, to represent ourselves, but really to also, for me, to get Catholic education around the country and diocese and bishops to actually help the movement and to support the movement.

So it’s kind of a two-way street, right? We’re there to make sure our interests are heard, but we’re also there to make sure that we’re doing our part to advance parental choice in the country.

Nathan Sanders: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can just say, I mean, Shawn, you’ve been a great partner. Your organization’s been a great partner, just, and I know that you’ve been in this movement and working longer than I have, but as a native of Louisiana, and I can say the Catholic church and the Catholic schools there are instrumental in the education of our kids, K through 12, and the Catholic school teachers and administrators, they love educating kids.

They love being able to minister to them through the Catholic church. And so it’s really special. I think it’s really important for the work that you’re doing.

So, well, with that introduction, Shawn, we’ll just jump right into it, to our questions. So I’m gonna start with a little softball question, maybe not, maybe so, but I wanna talk about sort of your opinion on the lasting impact of the Catholic education in the country and how, your opinion on their impact, but also how they’ve been able to maintain the mission, the values of the church throughout decades of changes, both educationally, culturally, but just how they’ve been able to maintain that. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Shawn Peterson: Yeah, so, well, I think the central part is obviously making sure that our Catholic schools, that what differentiates them from public schools, certainly is Jesus Christ is at the center of them, right? If that’s, if you don’t have the main thing, then you don’t have the main thing. I think it was a Catholic archbishop at one point always said that we don’t educate children because they’re Catholic, we educate them because we’re Catholic.

And education has always been a mission of the church and not just sort of a social arm of the church. It’s been like a true part of our mission, of the evangelical mission, is to Christ’s last words on earth were go and make disciples of all nations. And so we see education as a critical element in that.

It’s the church that started the university system, started the monastic education system, really took the seven liberal arts and made that a fundamental part. So, and I don’t think that’s been any different in this country. The first Catholic school actually in this, on what is now American soil was 1606.

So it actually creates a country. The Catholic school, the Ursuline Academy in the South was the first school to educate freed African-American female slaves. When we voluntarily desegregated before the Supreme Court forced public schools to do so.

So we’re proud of our educational history in this country. And I’m proud of being in a lot of communities. You travel a lot as do I.

It’s probably hard to go into any established New York, Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, pick your major city. It’s probably hard to walk four or five, six blocks without running into a Catholic school. Some of them are closed sadly, and some are still open and thriving, but they’re part of the fabric, whether we’re not a majority Catholic country, obviously, it’s a majority Protestant country.

But if you look at the impact of educating immigrants in this country, educate the poor Irish came here and public schools didn’t really want them in school. We created schools for a lot of immigrants. So very proud of our Catholic schools.

And one thing is funny in our business, Nathan, when I visit with legislators, even hostile legislators to choice, they always wanna tell me when I go in their office, like, oh, I went to Catholic school. And I’m like, okay, well, I’m thrilled you did. I’m not sure that you learned what you should have been if you’re opposing choice.

We maybe didn’t do the best job on that. But they’re like super, as soon as they hear where I’m from and what we’re doing, they’re fully happy to oppose me sometimes, but they love to tell me that they went to a Catholic school.

Nathan Sanders: Oh, yeah. Well, it’s funny because growing up in Louisiana, I didn’t go to a Catholic school, but I have a ton of friends that did and they were raised in the New Orleans area. And it’s more than common to go to a Catholic school if you’re in the New Orleans area growing up than a traditional public school.

So it’s funny when my friends don’t encounter like older folks or even legislators and they’ll say, well, where’d you go to school? And to me, when like a legislator would ask, where’d you go to school? I think of my college when I went to Southeastern.

But for them, it’s no, I went to Archbishop Rummel or I went to Jesuit. They wanna know where you’re at the high school because they wanna know if they went there as well. And so you’re totally right.

It’s a normal, especially in Louisiana, but many places in the United States, you’re walking on the street and you’re gonna run into a Catholic church, a Catholic school. And so that’s great. Well, I think the next question I wanna ask is sort of how this all ties into the work that you guys do, how that all ties into school choice programs, the work that we do as well, which is what are the benefits and the work that you guys do in tying that into tax credit scholarships and ESAs and vouchers?

I’d love to hear your take on how that enhances the Catholic school, the Catholic education experience.

Shawn Peterson: Yeah, so we really support school choice. I know that the opposition would, likes to throw this out there. Oh, you’re just, you’re doing this to save your Catholic schools or to prop up your Catholic schools because they’re closing and they need the money.

But we just don’t, I mean, that’s just not how we view, we don’t view parental choice as a way to, schools have to stay open to educate children, right? But we don’t run schools, they’re not a, I can tell you this, you will not find a Catholic superintendent in this country that will tell you that Catholic schools are a moneymaker. So they always cost more to run and operate.

And they’ve always been something that we love supporting and that parishioners have supported but to say that they’re not this big moneymaking enterprise for the church, so we’re not keeping them open so that we can pull lots of money out of them because it’s the other way around, we put more in than comes out. So, but what school choice does, finally it levels a playing field for those families that are just, that even with all the scholarships that we do and the parish subsidies and all the other ways we try to support them, it just, it helps fill that gap and gives those parents an opportunity if they want to send their child to a school of their choice. We have a lot of areas in the country, in the South, in Washington, DC, where even a predominant number of kids that attend that school are actually, they’re not Catholic necessarily.

But the parents know, I know the value of a Catholic education, I know the value of that Catholic school and so I want my child to have a better opportunity to get out of their situation and to go to college, to get. So, I mean, we really do look at this like this is a Catholic social teaching, parental choice is a Catholic social teaching. I was at a Yes.Every. Kid event earlier in this week and we all had a chance to give like a little closing statement.

And I just read from this document that came out in 1965. You know, it’s turning 60 years old this year. It’s called Gravissimum Educationis and it’s the document on Christian education, but there’s, it’s 1965 and there’s a beautiful paragraph in there about that parents are first educators of their children and therefore have the right in their choice of schools.

And then the second sentence is the most, maybe jarring to American ears a little bit, but the state has a duty and that includes financially to support parents in making those choices. Yeah. And this is 1965.

So this is even a little bit pre Milton Friedman. Yeah. I mean, so we look at that document a lot and that document to us is a very important papal encyclical written by Pope Paul VI that says parents have the right to choose.

And if they don’t have the financial means, the state has an obligation to assist them. So that’s why we do this. This is about giving that child an opportunity now to, we propose Catholic schools.

We don’t impose them.

Nathan Sanders: Yeah. I love that. I think two things I want to talk about off of that real quickly.

One is just a comment for me, which is oftentimes you and I, as we travel and work with folks in different states, legislators more likely, I think still there’s lots of misconceptions about Catholic schools out there. And so what you said earlier about people needing a different choice for different things, I mean, there are plenty of schools, or especially around the South where parents will choose Catholic schools in their community as an option. They may not even be Catholic, but that school is actually safer than their local public district school, right?

Maybe there’s high crime or there’s bullying at their school and they’re just choosing a different option because it’s safer and their kid loves it and they’re learning, even if they’re not Catholic. I think that’s super important. And the one thing I want you to expound on is oftentimes we’ll hear, well, a lot of these private schools in states that have education savings accounts or vouchers or what have you, a lot of these private schools are just jacking up their tuition.

They’re just, they’re making money. They’re equaling it to the amount of the ESA or they’re going higher or whatever. And what I try to explain to folks and what I would love to hear your thoughts on is what you just said.

Catholic schools are not these huge moneymaking operations. Like I’m not Catholic, but I know that the Catholic church and the Catholic schools have endless amounts of bake sales and different fundraisers like that just to keep everything afloat because they’re already offering so many discounts to students in their communities that they’re serving in order to get that Catholic education. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Shawn Peterson: Yeah, I mean, if you look at all kinds of things, I mean, you go and do, if you took the average Catholic school in the country, it’s not gonna be, they don’t have a $75,000 football stadium. You might look at the outside of the Catholic school and might see a few bricks are missing. Yeah.

You look at teacher pay, teachers are making probably two thirds what their public school, but they can even actually leave the Catholic school and probably go right down the road. And we’ve kept tuition low. I mean, there’s certainly even private schools and Catholic schools, yes.

There’s some really elite ones, premier ones. I’m not gonna be dishonest here and say, oh yeah, there are no like really elite Catholic schools or private schools. There are.

And those schools exist and that’s fine. Right. And people pay for them.

But I think the average Catholic school price in this country is like about $6,000 for grade school. I think it’s eight or nine maybe for high school. So if you look at that compared to per pupil funding, like even in very poor states, per pupil funding even like is well beyond that.

Yeah. Probably almost double that. So we’ve done, I think we’ve done a good job.

Now, obviously right at the close of the 60s or 1970s, we lost a lot of, let’s be honest, we lost the free teachers. We lost a lot of the sisters were no longer in the schools and we were losing vocations. But we also believe in paying people a fair wage.

And so we try to compensate for that. So, but I think, I still think, I think Catholic schools are an incredible value. Yeah.

And then I think with that question, what people have to understand is most of our Catholic schools do not charge what it costs them to educate. Tuition is usually substantially lower than what the actual cost to educate is. So yes, when these school choice programs pass, yeah, I’m not embarrassed about telling a diocese, yeah, you should probably increase your tuition.

Because you’ve kept it artificially low for 15 years. Like you haven’t raised tuition for 10 years, for five years, for 15 years. I think you’re due, you know?

And I think even the other side, like our opponents would say like, don’t we wanna pay teachers more of a living wage? Like you’re for that in the public sector. Why are you not for that?

Like, shouldn’t everyone be paid a fair wage? And this is a way to do that. So yeah.

Nathan Sanders: Yeah, I mean, in the public system, and again, no knock on the public system. I think we both support public schools, traditional schools. Most parents choose that still to this day, which is great.

But I think it’s the process of which the per pupil allocation, how that happens behind the scenes, because it’s so kind of distant, you’re not seeing the dollars flow right in front of you. Because public school budget allocation, both for students and non-student expenses, it consistently goes up each year. I mean, public school spending has only increased.

Lots of that is due to inflation and growth, which are normal things. Some of that’s due to maybe some administrative blow, that’s a different conversation. But that’s the normal world.

And so when Catholic schools have to have facility fees to replace these bricks you’re talking about, and they’re growing their staff, and they want to pay their teachers, sometimes costs do go up. But I think that’s having an education savings account or a voucher or tax credit program that these families can access, helps not only the families tremendously be able to access an education that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to have, but also helps the schools be able to educate these students and grow and have access to more of their community to educate. So yeah, I think you’re right.

And I just wanted you to talk about that because we get that all the time. I know you get that all the time as well. And I think it’s something that needs to be talked about a little bit more.

Shawn Peterson: Yeah, well, and I will say to Nathan, I’ve flipped the argument years ago. I believe public education is the education of the public. I don’t believe it’s a system.

I believe that even the common school system when it was devised, the purpose was to educate the most people that we could make that possible for more children. So really, why are we worried about what door they walk in? As long as they walk out with a good education, like that should be the concern.

Yeah. And I think that gets lost in the arguing back and forth about, oh, public dollars going here. Well, what is the purpose of those public dollars?

It’s to get, it’s to educate children. And every child, whether they go to public or private school, they are a citizen, right? Every parent who pays taxes, whether it’s, and then if they pay tuition, they’re a citizen.

So if the idea is to have an educated citizenry, then that should just be full stop right there.

Nathan Sanders: Yeah. Anyway. No, yeah, I agree 100%.

I think that’s great. Well, we’re gonna wrap up here in just a second. I do wanna end on one final question that I’ve, pretty much with all of these sort of podcasts, episodes that we’ve had thus far, I’ve kind of ended on a similar question.

So how can pastors, priests, church leaders, parishioners, how can they get involved in advocating for Catholic education in their communities if they are not already? And what message would you have for families who are sort of questioning, on the fence about Catholic education?

Shawn Peterson: Yeah, I would just say everyone has a right to advocate in the public square. And I think even our society a little bit has sort of in the last 10 years, has almost made people of faith feel like, oh, that’s your private faith. And you need to really, that’s fine to go to church on Sunday and you can pray inside your four walls of your home, but you really shouldn’t bring that into the public square.

And I would just tell people, no, you have every right as a person of faith to advocate for your beliefs. Again, it’s proposing, it’s not imposing. And so, get involved.

If there’s a state level initiative that some of us are working on, tell your state representative, tell your state senator, hey, I’m in favor of this. This would help my child. I want this.

And don’t forget about, we always talk about parents, but we forget, hopefully for most children, for every two parents they have, they’ve got four grandparents, they’ve got eight uncles and aunts, they’ve got, families are bigger than two parents. And so, as grandparents, as uncles and aunts, advocate for your nieces and nephews, your grandchildren. If all of a sudden, instead of two people writing to your state legislator, if all of a sudden they’re getting 20 letters from one family, and then you multiply that by 1,000 families or 2,000 families.

So just advocate, advocate for your children. This is the most important thing you can advocate for on behalf of your child is that they get a great education. You know, people like, you’ve got eight choices for coffee within probably two miles of your house.

You should have more than one choice for education because that’s the thing that’s gonna set your child up. So I just say advocate, advocate, advocate. And then, yeah, there’s just nothing better you can do.

And there’s no reason why pastors, priests can speak, they can speak for this in the pulpit. They don’t have to get political or partisan, but you know, fire up your congregations, fire-up your parishioners, fire up your parents, and turn an idea into a movement.

Nathan Sanders: Yeah, I love that. I could not have said it better myself. I think another thing that sort of goes unnoticed or underappreciated sometimes is both in Catholic education and non-Catholic education, but still Christian church-based education rather.

I’ve known stories in folks who have sent their kids or grandkids to a Catholic school and the family’s not Catholic, but then after maybe a few years in the school, that family starts to attend and starts to be a part of the church. And I think, so part of like that sort of spiritual and evangelistic aspect of church-based education is also super important for those who believe that Catholic education or Christian education should be, there should be sort of that spiritual mentality about it. And so I think that’s great.

And I’ve known plenty of folks who’ve been affected by that positively, at least. All right, well, that is what we have time for today, Shawn. I so appreciate you, your organization, the work that you do in this movement for Catholic education.

You’re a great partner nationwide. And so I’m super happy you’re able to join us for this conversation today.

Shawn Peterson: Well, I really appreciate it, appreciate the opportunity. EdChoice has always been a very generous partner for us as well, and we’ve always enjoyed the collaboration. And I want to obviously continue that and just getting to work with you personally in Alabama to get the CHOOSE Act passed.

And then let’s keep going and just give more kids an opportunity. I mean, every kid that gets a chance for better, you know, it doesn’t have to be about numbers, about one or two million. It’s got to be that one kid that this is life-changing for them.

So, and that’s worth doing.

Nathan Sanders: Amen to that. Well, thank you, Shawn. Thanks to those who are watching.

Again, this is Sunday School Choice from EdChoice. Episodes will release every two weeks and we’re happy you were a listener, a watcher today. So thanks, Shawn.