The three musketeers of tracker polling, Mike McShane, Colyn Ritter, and John Kristof share compelling numbers from our recent polling with American school parents. One celebratory number is the all-time high in parents’ optimism about their child’s academic development.
Mike McShane: Hello and welcome back to another edition of EdChoice Chats. This is Mike McShane, director of National Research at EdChoice, and this is our monthly installment of our Tracker polling podcast. As many of you are probably aware, every month in partnership with Morning Consult, we poll a nationally representative sample of Americans about the American education system. We over sample parents to get a really nice look at what American parents think, and today we are going to be talking about our poll that was in the field from March 15th to March 16th, 2023. Lot of interesting questions there as we’re kind of in the meat of the spring semester of the school year.
So parents have lots of opinions, people have lots of opinions. We’re also in the middle of a lot of legislative sessions across the country, so there’s definitely a lot of discussion happening about education policy. Kids are in school, so it’s a ripe time to talk about education policy and education practices. I think we’re going to start with, and I’m joined by my colleagues Colyn Ritter and John Kristof as usual. The three musketeers of tracker polling. You all are used to hearing at this point. And so I think we’re going to start with our Cleopatra’s Pizza Hut most surprising number of the month. John, what is your most surprising number?
John Kristof: So I’m going to bring a couple numbers together for one story here, and one of them is a number that I have talked about before, a little bit of something surprising, but a little bit of a new twist here today. For some time now, we have asked about how parents feel like their children are progressing developmentally on an academic level, on a social level, and on an emotional level. And something that we talked about before is that back in June, we saw a sudden jump in parents’ optimism about these three areas of development that just overshadowed anything that we had seen before. And so the following months we were trying to figure out if this was going to be a regular thing or if that was a fluke. And it definitely appears to be a bit of a new normal. So as a reference point, it’s about a 50, 50 parents think their child is progressing very well or something below that, academically and a little less so for social and emotional, kind of interchanging which one’s higher than the other.
But this month in March, we finally saw a new high, an all time high in parents optimism about their child’s academic development with 54% of parents saying that they think that their child is progressing very well academically, number higher than any point we had seen before. This is a number that during the pandemic we were seeing this number as low as 25 to 30%. And again, it’s been hovering maybe right around 50% for a few months now and 54% of the highest number that we’ve seen. And that’s really notable. And I’ll also note that it’s not just about their child necessarily, that they are especially optimistic about. From the first day that we have been doing this monthly opinion polling, which goes back to the beginning of 2020, we have asked how satisfied parents are with the school that their child is attending. And we break that down by school type and we’ve tended to report that by school type before. For both parents of children attending private schools and children attending public district schools this month saw all time highs in satisfaction for children’s schools.
So 68% of parents with kids in private schools are satisfied with those private schools and 50% of parents with kids attending public district schools are very satisfied, I guess I should clarify with those public district schools. Higher numbers than we’ve seen at any point in over three years of doing this monthly opinion polling. So there’s something in the air right now that leaves parents especially optimistic about schools overall. It’s interesting that this doesn’t necessarily show up in the same way about how they feel that the direction of K–12 education. People should be familiar with this question in our polling by now. We always ask how people feel K–12 education is going on a national, statewide and local level. We’re not seeing the same all-time highs in optimism there this month, but when it comes to a very individualized level about their kid and their school, parents are as optimistic or more optimistic than we have seen thus far.
And it’s surprising to me because I don’t know what has triggered this. Again, the jump in June happened and then we quickly saw these new NAEP scores come out in the fall. Didn’t damage parents’ confidence at all, probably because parents don’t necessarily keep track of that as much as we do, but it’s not clear what the evidence is that should give parents this level of optimism that they didn’t necessarily had before. Is it just a matter of when June hit COVID was over and we’ve only gotten further away from COVID since? Is that it? Because that’s the only like can maybe clear marker you can think of.
Anyway, it’s a good discussion point, and I think it’s interesting being in the education reform space because in a reform space there’s kind of an assumption that the status quo is not necessarily working. And obviously for a lot of parents the status quo is not necessarily working because even if you have 68% of parents or 50% of parents very satisfied with their schools, that’s a lot of parents who aren’t. But it is interesting that the trends seems to be in a very upward direction, and I think it’s worth asking why, trying to figure out what’s going on there, what is working for parents, what do parents need to see to feel satisfied and optimistic in these kinds of ways? It’s an interesting discussion and I would be very curious as to the answer so that I can be less surprised about this in the future.
Mike McShane: For sure. Colyn, what number jumped out to you and surprised you?
Colyn Ritter: So I think this is the first time I’ve talked about it at least on this podcast, but I really like the question that we asked about how much parents are willing to spend on a monthly basis to participate in a learning pod and also to get tutoring for their child outside of school hours. Both experienced significant increases in March. Tutoring went from $296 per month per child. Parents were willing to spend $296 in February and it jumped to 381, so nearly an 80, a little over an $80 jump in a single month. And that $381 per month that parents are willing to spend on tutoring is reaching one of the highest levels we’ve seen since we started recording this question and trending it out. Same trend, we saw an almost identical jump and learning pods. Parents were willing to spend roughly $370 on a month per child for a learning pod, and that number jumped to $450 a month.
So parents are willing to pay more for learning pods, but the jump was about the same compared to tutoring and that correlates with more parents being interested or are currently participating in learning pods. So it went from 30% to 34% in March, so that’s roughly a third of parents are either in a learning pod or interested in joining one. That’s a significant chunk of parents. So to see the price parents willing to pay increase also helps reinforce what we’re seeing on that question.
Tutoring interest decrease slightly in March. That’s not totally surprising. We’ve seen that kind of as a pattern after we had a significant jump in the fall up to around 45% and now we’re down to 40%. So it stayed around the same, roughly four and 10 parents are interested or currently have a tutor for their child outside of school hours. But it was good to see that parents are willing to pay more in a sense of they’re realizing the power that tutoring has and the flexibility it offers. And the same goes for learning pods. So that was interesting to see that big of jump in terms of what parents are willing to spend.
Mike McShane: The number that stood out to me, I guess it shouldn’t continue to surprise me, but every month it continues to surprise me, is our question about microschools. We’ve been asking this question, finding different wording and ways of asking parents if their children are participating in microschools. And this month, even though we do these split sample experiments where half of folks don’t get information of sort of what a microschool is, we just give very basic information about microschooling and others get more detailed information about microschooling. We are still getting these numbers. Now again, the caveats, caveats, caveats here that we still think these numbers are high. This month without information, the sort of naive question that we ask, or half the sample got, 15% of parents said that their children were enrolled in a micro school and with more information it was 16%. So it’s not like we’re seeing big gaps between these numbers, which I think is really interesting. Yes, I still think these numbers are high. I’m willing to wager almost anything that 15% or 16% of American families are sending their children to micro schools. I do not think that that is happening.
But I mean at some point, we keep asking these questions and we keep getting these answers. And I don’t know at the point where we’re just going to say, listen, “We’ve tried asking the question a couple different ways. We’ve asked it at different times, to different people. We’ve experimented with all of these things, and we keep getting this weird 10% to 15% number.”
So we’re going to keep asking it. We’re going to keep trying to get this information. We’ll try and I think eventually triangulate with other people that are collecting these data. But I mean, it just keeps every month. That’s one of the first things that I scroll to. Because I’m like, “Oh, this will be the month. This will be the month that these numbers will come down. These will be the month that, along with what my priors of all of this are.” And every month the numbers refuse to conform to my vision of the world. And maybe at some point my vision of the world changes, but I don’t know if I’m quite there yet.
So for our second topic today, given that we are recording this in the middle of April, everyone is aware of tax time. I hope everyone… Probably by the time you’re hearing this, you need to have either gotten your taxes in or filed an extension. But I hope everybody got their taxes in, and it wasn’t too painful for you. But I want to ask the fellas about what we would call the death and taxes least surprising number. So we just talked about the number that maybe surprises us the most. But Colyn, what number did you see that surprised you the least?
Colyn Ritter: So I had one burning thought from your last point, about the microschools. Even if the number is high, which I do agree with you, I think it is a little high: the interest, it’s nearly a third of parents are interested, and that is around, that stays the same amount, then that’s significant. And I think the interest is something, even if they mightn’t be confused about if their kid is actually enrolled in a micro school, the interest is around that each month, and that’s a big chunk of parents. So yeah, the micro school question is a really interesting one, but I’m going to pivot to parents.
So we ask parents if they’re satisfied or dissatisfied with their child’s experiences with the following types of schooling. We talk about public schools, and then we also talk about private schools. And this question… And again, keep in mind it’s percent of parents that are very satisfied with their school, and we see really high highs, and we see dramatic drops, every so often. But this month we’re looking at one of those very high highs. So serious increase from February, in terms of the percent of parents are very satisfied with both types of school. Granted, 69% of private school parents are very satisfied with their child’s experiences at their private school. So that is around one of the highest levels we’ve seen yet. I think 70% is the highest we’ve seen back in around this time in 2021, so two years ago. And we’re reaching that level again after a serious increase from February.
District school, we are observing the highest level this month, at 50%. So half of parents in public schools are very satisfied with their child’s experience. And I don’t think that’s surprising, because John talked earlier on the podcast about how parents think their child is progressing very well when it comes to academic learning. We see each month that parents are very satisfied. Granted, it hasn’t been this high, but we have observed levels around this. I mean, total satisfaction for private school parents is at 91%. Public schools is at 85%. And keep in mind, in this question we’re talking about percent of parents are very satisfied.
But when total satisfaction, including the people who are somewhat satisfied… We’re looking at nine out of 10 parents in private schools are satisfied to some extent. So it’s not totally surprising to me. I know I’m touching on a lot of numbers here, nearly probably a decent percent of our slides in the report, but the majority of parents think K–12 education, their local school district, is heading in the right direction. 45% of parents think K–12 education in their state is headed in the right direction. These are more than respectable numbers, when it comes to this question. It’s what we’ve seen pretty much since we’ve asked it.
So parents are relatively satisfied when it comes to their local and states’ K–12 education. They’re very satisfied with their schools. They also think their kids are progressing really well. So this question is not very surprising to me. But it was interesting to see that the highest percent we’ve ever seen of public school parents being very satisfied, in getting to that level with private school. The question I would have is, like I said earlier, we do tend to see a decent drop-off the next month. So maybe private school parents can keep this momentum and continue to be very satisfied maybe to an all-time high, and maybe public school parents continue to go. But it’ll be a number I would keep my eye on for next month, and the next couple months for sure.
Mike McShane: John, what number did not surprise you this month?
John Kristof: A number that I want to draw attention to is one that we have also asked from the very beginning, except I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about this before. I could be wrong. We ask what is in some ways a straightforward question given, what we do here at EdChoice. But if parents have the option, what type of school would you select, in order to obtain the best education for your child? We get results. We have a follow up question: if given the option, and neither financial costs nor transportation were factors, what type of school would you select to get the best education for your child?
So we ask for about preferences, and then preferences taking out costs and transportation. These numbers have been incredibly stable over three years. About 45% to 50% of parents will still list a regular public school.
Now, I will note that we ask these types of questions in Schooling in America as well. And there is a split as well, when we talk about intra-district and inter-district open enrollment, adding that factor as well. So there’s like a split between traditional public school that’s assigned, versus some other public school option that you’re not necessarily residentially zoned to. We just don’t consider that for this polling. Just thought I would draw attention to that anyway.
And then about a third of parents, between a quarter and a third of parents, we’ll say about 30% of parents on a month-in/month-out basis, say that they would ideally prefer private school. And then 7% to 10% of parents are interested in homeschooling, in charter schools, give or take a few percentage points there. That’s something that we definitely saw change over COVID, actually, was homeschool and charter schools specifically.
But anyway, those are about where the numbers are now, as well. And when you take out cost and transportation factors, there may be a bit of an assumption that there’d be massive changes in preference, or at least I would assume so. And it turns out that items really only shift a couple percentage points, and it’s almost all concentrated in a four to five percentage point shift, from people preferring public school toward people preferring private schools. So a four to five percentage point shift: I think most people wouldn’t consider it that massive.
So a couple things that could be possible there: there are people already reading the first question as a way of taking out cost and transportation factors, reading the first question. So a few people are making that shift. And the second question, that’s possible… But maybe it’s also what, and I think this bears true in a lot of other polling as well: while there is a certain percentage of the population that does really deal with transportation issues, it might be much fewer than people might traditionally think, at least to a significant enough degree that it’s affecting how people are making decisions. So there’s that factor as well.
Anyway, I just wanted to draw attention to this, because it’s not surprising, in that these numbers are very stable over time, over a lot of different shifts, even in a post-COVID world. And I think about this question and results somewhat often, because it is not uncommon on social media or in op-eds to see someone making a claim that 90% of children attend public schools. And so we should be making decisions based on the 90% of families who choose to go to public schools.
And of course the multiple problems with that: one, that 90% number assumes that charter schools are public schools. So thanks for that call out. And second of all, a big chunk of that 83% to 90% of people would rather do something else. Or is it really a number to celebrate, that they’re choosing your school, because they’re residentially assigned to there, and they would really rather have another option elsewhere? Because again, there’s just very consistent results over time that about three out of 10, upwards of a third, sometimes parents would ideally do a private school and then another 20% would prefer to homeschool their kids or do a charter school instead. A lot of people do want their local public school, maybe because they move there to benefit from a particular school district. That’s all fine and dandy, but it’s not that 90% of people are actively choosing and preferring and idealizing their residential assignment system. And these results have been pretty consistent over the course of the last three years. And so I tend to skip it a lot because I’m like, “Yep, yep, looks the same again.” But I just wanted to draw attention to it because I think it actually is really irrelevant for the kinds of conversations that we have and probably conversations that people who listen to this podcast have. So it’s worth checking out.
Mike McShane: My number that was not surprising was just ESA support. If you look at how we’ve been following these numbers. The first numbers that we actually have, we’ve been asking this question every month of we describe to people what an ESA is and ask them whether they support it or not. In January of 2020, strongly support amongst all Americans was 29% and somewhat support was 38%. This month, strongly support, 30%, somewhat support yep, 38% again. So that looks like one point change. If you combine those numbers over every iteration we’ve had, and if you look at the numbers in Morning Consult put together these great charts for it. There’s like a little bit of up and down, but almost always if the somewhat support goes up a little bit, it’s because strongly support went down. If you look at the sum of those two numbers, they tend to be very, very close to one another. And the same is true for parents. When we first ask this question, 37% strongly support it and 36 somewhat support it, and now it’s both 38%.
So we’re just seeing something very consistent, which I think is really interesting. A lot of more legislative conversations are happening right now around this. I think ESAs are probably more in the news. There have been several national news stories that have been done about this, lots of coverage. And again, it just seems like those opinions are pretty much baked. And so I wasn’t sure, maybe these things, maybe they would change. Maybe people would hear more, “Oh, this is that thing they’re doing in Arkansas. This is that thing they’re doing in Utah.” And people would feel some kind of way about it. They’d feel better, they’d feel worse, they’d feel whatever. But turns out seems like people have their opinions formed on this and they’re keeping that going.
For our last segment today, we are going to do the 1.21 gigawatts number that will matter in the future. What do we think is a number that showed up this month that will matter in the future? And you know what? I’m going to take host prerogative and I’m going to go first. I’ve been going last each of these times. We’re going to mix it up a little bit here, fellas. I want to go first A, because I don’t want one of you guys to steal this because this is, I feel like the one interesting point I’m going to make today, and by God I’m going to make it.
So the thing that stood out to me, and I think the number that’s going to matter in the future is we’ve been asking this question. Two parents, have their children switched schools? And we ask them, other than going from middle school to high school or grade school to middle school or whatever, has your child changed schools? We’ve asked these interesting questions about switching sectors and all that, but I just want to focus on just the question of do your kids change schools?
What we found was that 26% of parents said that their child has switched schools. And why I think this number matters in the future. Now, part of this is a little challenging because we don’t know what this was five or 10 or 20 years ago. My assumption that I’m going off of which I may be disabused of is that this is probably less than we used to see. I think students are probably more mobile than they used to be. I think definitely they have more options between switching between sectors than they ever had before. And again, this doesn’t even talk about, you could maybe go to a traditional public grade school, but a charter high school or vice versa or whatever.
So it seems to me there’s just more school switching happening than before. And even if not, this quarter of family switching schools. Why I think this will matter in the future is this idea of normalizing school switching. I think we’ve seen over the course of the last couple of decades, normalizing of job switching. I feel like I probably should have checked this number before I said it on this podcast. But if someone knows these actual numbers or say, “Oh, this is one of those things that this is a number that people repeat, but they always get it wrong.” I’ve been hearing for years, what was it like, the baby boomer generation? Was it they planned to have something like three jobs in their entire lifetime, or the average baby boomer has three jobs in their lifetime, whereas the average millennial will have three before they’re 30? I don’t know exactly what the numbers are, but something along those lines that there’s a lot more job switching.
I think could be wrong about this. But I think that has generally been a pretty pro worker movement. People being willing to change jobs, being willing to… I think we saw the Great Resignation and we saw all of these things were happening. I think by and large were actually good for employees, if it’s rough for employers. But it was good for employees to say, “Hey, listen. This job isn’t working out for me. There are other fish in the sea. I’m going to go work somewhere else.” And finding jobs that fit what they want, pay wise, lifestyle wise, work wise, et cetera, I think ultimately is a good thing. In the past because of cultural expectations, people wouldn’t change jobs. “Oh, you can’t change jobs, or it will be a much bigger deal to change jobs.”
So I think if this mental shift happens where changing schools isn’t seen as some crazy idea, it’s like, “Well listen, we’re going to give this school a shot and we hope that it meets our kids’ needs.” But part of the kind of nature of schooling is that you can only get so much information before you actually experience it. You can tour the school, you can get standardized test scores, you get any of this sort of stuff, but that only gives you part of the picture. You only really know once you’re in it. And I think normalizing the idea of, if your child’s school isn’t working for you, there are other options. And obviously doing all the work to try and ensure that they have those options.
But the idea of if we normalize school switching and saying, “Find a school that works for your child if it’s not working for whatever reason, if it’s not working academically, if it’s not working socially, if they’re getting bullied.” If your kid is getting bullied, you shouldn’t have to keep your kid in that school. You shouldn’t probably keep your kid in that school. I’m not trying to give parenting advice here, but I would generally speak, we should normalize saying, “Hey, if your child is getting bullied in their school, it is totally okay to move to a different school and it’s totally normal. It’s no big deal.” And the same thing is true of if their academic needs aren’t getting met or whatever.
So I just think that that could be a kind of shift that will matter in the future as this changes over time as the people who switched schools during their own schooling experience. So personally, I did not switch schools. I went to a K–8 school and then a high school. Before I went to college, I attended two schools. I feel like that was a pretty normal experience for lots of people. But as that changes, I think there’ll be knock on effects of that that will shape what schooling looks like in the future.
John, what is your 1.21 gigawatts number that you think will matter in the future?
John Kristof: So what draws my attention is the familiarity with school choice policies in your state or in the respondent’s state. Something we’ve talked about before recently, as you mentioned earlier, Mike, there’s been a lot of coverage around ESAs in ways that there hasn’t been before, even in recent years before 2023 when the West Virginia program passed or the Arizona expansion happened, less than a year ago, honestly. We’re just seeing a lot of coverage now that we haven’t seen before because we’ve seen massive ESA programs that we’ve never seen before pass and expansions likewise.
Anyway, we are getting to a point where massive private school choice programs and flexible private school choice programs are happening on a scale that we haven’t seen before. And for those states, people who are interested in giving families access to kinds of education that they couldn’t have before, the question will come from removing legal barriers to implementation, to actually making these programs work for families, or implementation from a bit of a public awareness perspective. Or instead of families trying to make a lot of sacrifices to make some kind of education alternative work for their kid, making them aware that there’s this new program that can give them access to something different or access to something that they are accessing, but they’re sacrificing much of their lives in order to make it happen. Maybe those sacrifices don’t need to happen anymore, and I think a lot of attention needs to be given to that. The reason I say that is because when you look at this question that we ask, and this is after we ask opinion questions and give what we aim to be very neutral descriptions of open enrollment policy of charter schools, of school vouchers, of ESAs, people know what these are now, and then we ask, “Are you aware of any of these programs happening in your state?” And for all four of them, there’s a sizable chunk of people where the program does exist in their state and they’re like, “No, we don’t have that.”
But people are much more likely to be aware of open enrollments in charter schools than they are of school vouchers or ESAs. So did give an indication here, 83% of our respondents came from states with a charter school law in place, and 63% of our respondents correctly identified that their state does have a charter school policy, and then 20% did not. They said, “We don’t have a charter school policy,” when they actually do. So a little over three-quarters of people correctly identified that their state does have a charter school law and a little over two-thirds of people correctly identified that their state has an open enrollment policy. And when you get to school vouchers and ESAs, the number drops around to about 50/50. So people are about as likely because the numbers fluctuate from month to month just by a few percentage points.
It’s basically a coin flip, right? It’s almost no better than random that people will know that their state has a school voucher or an ESA or not. And I think that’s a big miss, right? Because how many of those families, how many of those parents who are taking… Because I guess you should clarify, these numbers are all for school parents only taking our survey. How many of those families taking the survey that don’t know that their state has some kind of voucher policy or some kind of ESA policy could be taking advantage of it? Maybe they’re part of that third of parents who in their ideal circumstance would like to send their child to a private school and they don’t know that this program exists.
And it’s not like the fault for that falls on any one particular person or type of person or group of people, but as the legal legislative victories pile up, I think there needs to be increased attention on what happens now. If we’re really serious about helping families access education options that they didn’t have before, there’s going to be an awareness thing here because not every family follows the news and follows K–12 politics in the same way that a lot of people listening to this podcast do.
So what work are we going to do as maybe movement or as school reformers broadly, what are we willing to do to help people be as aware of their new private school options, or in the case of ESAs, any kind of customized education option? How can we get those numbers to look closer to what charter schools have been able to pull off and what open enrollment has been able to pull off? I think the number is really going to matter in the future, and if we’re going to consider ESAs a success, if we want to look back in 20 years and say that these ESA programs have been successful, I think it’s going to be in part because we’re able to get that number way above 50/50. Much more people are going to be aware that, “Hey, these programs exist in our state and I’ve made the decision that yes, it will work for us, or no, we don’t need it.” And both are fine. Just helping people know that the options exist.
Informed consumers are important in any kind of market, and if we’re creating a market for education, we need to inform families about what we’re doing, what we’re providing for them.
Mike McShane: All right. Colyn, you’re going to bring this one home. What’s your number?
Colyn Ritter: We asked how concerned parents are about the possibility of a violent intruder or a mass shooter entering their child’s school? And keep in mind, this survey was conducted from March 15th to March 16th, so a couple of weeks before the tragic event in Nashville, the school shooting in the elementary school. And before this happened, so in March, 52% of parents were very concerned a violent intruder entering their child’s school and that is roughly around what we’ve seen. It was a 1% increase from February, so nothing crazy there.
We did see more significant increases when broken down by different age of a child. So kindergarten through fourth grade parents, 56% of parents were concerned about a school shooter entering their child’s school, and that is a 5% increase from February, 5% increase for parents of kids in grades five through eight, up to 54%. And also high school parents stay at a 4% increase to 51%.
So the majority of parents are concerned about this. Obviously, when we’re talking about a number that I’m curious to see in the future, I want to see what the impact of the events in Nashville had on this question because the origin of this question came from Uvalde and we wanted to get a pulse of the parents and see what the concern level was. We also asked this question to teens and teachers as well. So there was some really interesting findings post Uvalde. And again, none of us on here want to continue talking about this question, but the fact is that these things are continuing to happen. It’s incredibly sad and unfortunate, but it is important at the same time to listen to the parents and understand how they feel.
So I’m really interested to see when we get the April report, if the number will change. I’d be shocked to see it decrease. If I had to wager, I think it would be a slight increase. But yeah, that’s one of the numbers I’m keeping an eye on for sure. I think parents concerned is going to increase, but that’s just my guess.
Mike McShane: Yeah, and it was interesting. We’ve looked at public school parents, private school parents and others, and this happening in a private school where many of these previous high profile ones took place in public schools.
Colyn Ritter: Yeah, there are some variables here.
Mike McShane: Yeah. Well, sorry everyone to end on that note, but I think it’s a really important one. I think of all the additions that we’ve made to our surveys, I think that’s one of the most important questions that we’ve started asking. I think it’s really genuinely brought to light information that a lot of people didn’t know. I don’t think people understood or continue to understand the degree to which parents are concerned about violence in their children’s schools and their concerns about mass shooters and others.
I think if you ask the average person walking down the street and you ask, “Hey, what percent of American school parents is worried about a shooter in their child’s school?” I doubt folks would say half, and that’s what it is. And so I think this is a case where I think our polling really has brought to light some things that are true and that people need to know about.
But as always, Colyn, John, a pleasure. I look forward to chatting with all of you again next week. We got to give a shout-out to Jacob Vinson, our fantastic podcast producer and to all of you for listening. Thanks so much for joining us this month. We look forward to chatting with you next month as we have more questions to ask and more numbers to throw at you. And I look forward to whatever the next version of EdChoice Chats that I speak to you on, I look forward to it, speaking to you again on the next edition of EdChoice Chats.