For this episode of EdChoice Chats, Mike McShane is on the other side of the microphone talking about his new research report “Surveying Educational Entrepreneurs: The Headwinds and Tailwinds to Building New Educational Enterprises.” He shares information about the characteristics of an educational entrepreneur, as well as the barriers to educational entrepreneurship.
John Kristof: Hello and welcome to another edition of EdChoice Chats. I am John Kristof, senior research analyst at EdChoice. And joining me today on the other side of the microphone, so to speak, for once, is Mike McShane, Director of National Research at EdChoice. Mike, good to talk to you as always.
Mike McShane: My John, how the turntables have turned–
John Kristof: How the turns have tabled.
Mike McShane: …to borrow from the great Michael Scott. Yeah, I’m used to being sort of on the other side of this. But this is fantastic. This is going to be great.
John Kristof: Absolutely. Yeah., We’re doing something a little bit different today because this time Mike is going to be answering the questions because, as I’m sure listeners to this podcast know, Mike does research as well as host podcasts. And he has a new paper out, and you can find it on the EdChoice website, edchoice.org. And let me pull up the actual title to make sure I remember it. “Surveying Educational Entrepreneurs: The Headwinds and Tailwinds to Building New Educational Enterprises”.
And I mean off the bat, I think this is a really important paper for people to consider. Because it asks questions that people in school choice world I think need to consider. We talk about school choice, creating access to educational opportunities. And so we also are very interested in what those educational opportunities are and the people creating those opportunities.
I mean, that’s my initial impression, but I’ll start this, Mike, just by asking just in general, what were your goals of this research project? What was the impetus for it? What were you trying to learn going into it?
Mike McShane: Yes, thank you John. I was thinking to myself when you mentioned that I also do research, it was one of those things that’s like, if you think I’m bad at hosting podcasts, wait ’til you see the research I do. No, but I’m going to-
John Kristof: Oh, no.
Mike McShane: …avoid making that cheap joke at my own expense. But I’m bad at taking compliments. I have to learn to be better at that. So when you say nice things about things I’ve done, I immediately feel the need to under credit.
John Kristof: Like a true researcher.
Mike McShane: Right? That’s exactly right. Yeah. So look, the main sort of motivation behind this study is to try and understand this field that’s very sort of ill-defined and fuzzy around the edges of educational entrepreneurship and educational entrepreneurs. A lot of the work that I’ve done throughout my history, the kind of, if you want to call it academic, or the kind of research that I do has always been mostly around school choice. And it’s trying to understand how school choice markets work. And if you think about school choice markets, there’s a supply side and there’s a demand side.
A demand side, it’s like parents, right? And understanding the decisions that they make and what they want to know. A lot of the work that we do together on the surveys where we pull parents, that’s trying to understand the kind of demand side of what parents want, how they make their decisions, how they weigh out relative things, different bits of information or different priorities, et cetera. So that’s definitely been a big interest for me.
But really what I’ve been interested in is the supply side. So how do we get more new, better, great schools? How do we encourage dynamite schools to scale up? How do we encourage the creation of new schools and new opportunities? And so as we’ve seen things like ESA programs grow and even sort of a lot of stuff outside of traditional schools, traditional school policy, all of that sort of stuff, I wanted to take a step back and try and understand what’s going on.
And while there are lots of ways in which you can collect data and look at different data sets that are out there, one of the things that I’ve learned throughout my career is that sometimes it helps just to ask people. Some of the research that I’ve done on teachers, I just survey them. If I’m curious what teachers think about something, you try and get as big a group as you can and ask them some questions. And the case was here as well, which was let’s try and identify some educational entrepreneurs and let’s try and understand the sort of water that they’re swimming in. What are the things that are making their lives easier? Where are they finding support? And then also, what are the things that are making their lives more difficult? Where are the points of resistance that they’re encountering?
Because if we want to see more of these things, which I think most people listening to this podcast are probably sort of encouraged by all of this stuff that’s happening, well if we want to see more of it, we need to understand this environment, this landscape.
John Kristof: Yeah, that’s great. And just the idea to descriptively understand who educational entrepreneurs are I think is very important. Because I think if you say that term, “I’m an education entrepreneur or I talk to an education entrepreneur today,” a lot of people, especially once you get outside of the education reform space, might be a little bit confused as to what you’re talking about. So on that note, who took your survey? I think a lot of interesting things come up just when you look at the basic demographics and venture types. But what would you like people to know about who educational entrepreneurs are? Who are the people who took your survey?
Mike McShane: Yeah, so when I think about educational entrepreneurs, and I think this builds on work that I did a few years ago with Rick Hess and work that Rick Hess did before he and I ever started collaborating with one another about educational entrepreneurship. If you think of the three kind of big buckets of educational entrepreneurs, the easy way to think of it is schools, tools, and talent. So these are people who are trying to build new schools. And now as all these new learning models have proliferated it sort of more broadly defined as schools or learning environments. So maybe tutoring services or it maybe microschools or it maybe hybrid schools or enrichment programs, but the sort of schooling environment. Environments in which children are learning.
Tools are all of the things that make teaching easier, better. So this could be everything from the kind of boring, mundane learning management systems where you can manage your enrollment and all of that sort of stuff, to new curricula or new online resources or any of this incredible plethora of things that’s has emerged. I think of just in talking to teachers today, I was a teacher longer ago than I would like to admit, but just the stuff that’s available at teachers’ fingertips right now as far as enrichment activities and resources and videos and worksheets and sort of all that stuff that’s available.
So all of those tools that are there. And then the last is around talent. So creating these new tools or utilizing these new tools, starting these new schools, staffing these new schools. We need pipelines of talent. And there have been entrepreneurs who have stepped up and said, “Hey, we want to develop new teacher preparation programs. We want to create new professional development opportunities.” All of that stuff that’s kind of trying to help the talent pipeline.
So those were the three groups. So now how did we get the people who took this survey? We started with our friends at the VELA Fund. So for those of you that are unfamiliar, VELA is this really interesting organization that provides seed funding for educational entrepreneurs. I think at the time that they helped us by distributing a survey link. We made an online survey, you could access it via a link and VELA distributed it to their list of people that they work with. I think at that point, they had given out something like 1300 grants.
Now, not all of the grants that they gave would probably directly classify into this, but they basically sent out an email blast with a link to the survey to all of these folks. And throughout this process, we worked with Hanover Research and they did some kind of combing of social media and LinkedIn and looked at some incubators and other organizations that had sort of started or helped seed educational entrepreneurs, looked at alumni of those programs, et cetera, and then tried to comb together all of those folks. So people identified as entrepreneurs online or who had graduated from educational entrepreneurship programs.
The long and the short of it was we eventually got about 60 respondents to this, which if you heard me starting the beginning that we sent a blast out to 1300 people. I will be the first to say that it was disappointing. I really hoped that we could have gotten more, and for the rest of the conversation that we’re having, we have to take it with a bit of a grain of salt because it was an incredibly low response rate. And so if you hear me making super definitive statements of what this survey tells us about the world of entrepreneurship, this is me like prefacing that by saying, you shouldn’t listen to me do that.
So I’ve assiduously avoided in the paper and will do so whenever I talk about it, trying to make too sweeping of it. I think there are interesting insights about this particular group of people that we spoke to, and they had some interesting characteristics that I think could be interesting for the broader field. But I will be the first to say that I would not consider this to be a representative sample of all educational entrepreneurs in America.
John Kristof: Yeah, that’s really important to keep in mind. I mean, every research project is going to have some limitations, every survey is going to have some limitations. This one, when it came to sample size has perhaps an unusually large limitation that people should keep in mind as you said. But as you also mentioned, I do think that there are some interesting things that we can look at, and at the very least, ask the question maybe there’s something there. So hopefully we can dive into a few of those things today.
One of the very preliminary questions or early questions that I have is about just demographics, just information about who these entrepreneurs are. You collect information about how they describe the nature of their project and their education background, their income level and things like that. I thought it was interesting, and this is not necessarily indicative of anything, I’m not super familiar with entrepreneurship scholarship, what the research literature says on it, but 80% of people who took your survey have at least 10 years of experience in the field. Income levels I feel like are very evenly distributed. Is there anything and we don’t have to dwell here too long if you don’t want to, but is there anything in these kind of traits and characteristics that you think are particularly worth noting or keeping in mind as people are building an image in their head of who education entrepreneurs are?
Mike McShane: Yes. So from what we know and there’s a great Kansas City based… Got to give a shout out to the Hometown Foundation, the Kaufman Foundation, who’s done tons of work over the years on entrepreneurs both fostering entrepreneurship and studying entrepreneurship. And from my understanding from the kind of best stuff that they give, I think around it’s about a 60/40 split between men and women who identify as entrepreneurs. When you look at the age profile, they tend to be pretty evenly distributed across the age spectrum, and they tend to be wealthier as you might imagine, people identify as an entrepreneur. I think some other data I pulled together, this wasn’t from Kaufman, but I think the average salary is something like $90,000 a year or something like that. So they’re more likely to be male. They’re not necessarily more or less likely in to be older or younger, and they’re more likely to be wealthier.
And generally speaking, that was not the case of the sample of the survey. Now, again, I should say that’s entrepreneurs writ large, not necessarily educational entrepreneurs. And there’s probably reasons why we might think that educational entrepreneurs would not match up with those things. And I don’t know if we have necessarily a truly accurate portrait of what educational entrepreneurs in America look like. What I can tell you from our study was that sort of, as you mentioned, our respondents were much more likely to be women. So 76% of our respondents identified as female while only 14% identified as male. So that’s definitely way out of line with what we see in entrepreneurship in general. As you mentioned, they’re much more likely to be older. I mean, if you give the fact that you had to start teaching in your early 20s, and as you mentioned like 80% of the respondents had spent at least 10 years in the field.
So we’re just not seeing that sort of same spread. And 41% of our respondents had more than 20 years of experience in the classroom. So definitely skewing older, much more likely to be women. And as you mentioned too, I think much more likely to come from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. So about 16% of our respondents reported an annual income of less than $25,000 a year. 7% were between $25,000 and basically $50,000, another 16% from $50,000 to $75,000, and another 14% from $75,000 to $100,000. So if you look at over a 100,000 I think was only 19% of our respondents. So again, not necessarily in line with what we see as entrepreneurs as a whole. And one of these things that I think is actually interesting about this survey, while as I said, I don’t claim this to be a representative survey of educational entrepreneurs as a whole, it is a really interesting portrait of a particular population, and that is a population that lots of people care about and lots of people want to have more of.
So if you’ve been involved in any way in the kind of nonprofit end of the entrepreneurship space, so back when I was living in Kansas City, I was on the board of an organization like an incubator that was trying to seed more entrepreneurial investments in education and with an explicit goal of trying to identify more women, trying to identify lower income people, people of color, all of these sort of underrepresented groups in entrepreneurship. And so in many ways this is kind of a portrait of those people, of people who are more likely to be low income, more likely to be women, not necessarily more likely to be people of color. Our findings were roughly commensurate with the United States population.
Now, part of that’s probably because using VELA, like that’s VELA helped us popularize or spread the survey, and part of their mission is trying to identify those folks. So that probably helps explain some of it, but insofar as you care, you, dear listener, care about trying to see more women entrepreneurs, low income people as entrepreneurs in education, this could actually be something that would give you some interesting information.
John Kristof: Yeah, that’s a really good discussion of the research profile here. I think a lot of people will find that helpful and interesting. And if we can extrapolate this and find that education entrepreneurs really are a different profile from entrepreneurs writ large, I think that’s a really important finding, especially as education entrepreneurs become a much bigger part of the conversation in education reform. I want to jump to some other questions here, specifically a little bit more policy oriented and then we can loop back if we have time. One of the questions that you ask is about barriers, and I guess this is not necessarily specifically policy related, but it can get there. What kind of barriers do the entrepreneurs you surveyed experience in their entrepreneurial career.
And far and away, the most frequently cited problem that they say is a lack of funding and resources and perhaps being in an education space doesn’t surprise too many people. And you break this out in a few different ways by intensity of how much a barrier there was, from a slightly influential barrier to extremely influential barrier. And then you also break down the results by what type of entrepreneurship project these people have.
You mentioned the categories of schools, tools, and talent, so you’re able to identify different things there. One interesting thing that I noted, and you don’t have to comment on this, you can comment on something else if you find that something else a little bit more impactful. But something I noticed is that the entrepreneurs who said that they were working on tools projects, or fit in that category were quite likely to say that lack of marketing and communication, and I would just say awareness of their product is another way of thinking about that was a significant problem. And relatively speaking, schools entrepreneurs were very unlikely to cite those as a problem. And conversely, almost half of schools’ entrepreneurs thought that public perception was a barrier to their work, and nobody in the tools sector thought that it was a problem. Either commenting on that or just this question as a whole, what did you learn about the barriers that education entrepreneurs are facing?
Mike McShane: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest barrier that you mentioned, it sort of ties into what we were just talking about, which is if these entrepreneurs are more likely to be low income people or lower income people, we shouldn’t be surprised that the largest barrier is a lack of funds. So these are not people that are dipping into, reaching into deep pockets to fund their ventures. These are people who are starting, I think, relatively small ventures. I ask some questions about their location of funds, where did you get the money to do this? And the largest answer was personal funds. And I think the second largest was something like family and friends, which I have to be honest, I was really surprised by that. I wasn’t surprised by the first one. It made perfect sense to me that people are using personal funds to do that.
I was surprised sort of given what we know, if this is a profile of lower income people, you would imagine that lower income people’s friends would also be lower income people and they wouldn’t necessarily have the money to do this. I was expecting, and we did some things where we broke down this by income levels. I was expecting our sort of higher income people to say, “Hey, I’m using personal funds and I’m reaching out to my other wealthy friends and family to fund these ventures.” That’s not actually what we found. We found that the wealthier people were less likely to do those sorts of things and we’re more likely to use traditional areas like corporate sponsorship, partnership with corporations, venture capital, bank loans, all of those sorts of things. They were much less likely to reach out to friends and family to do that, much less likely to access philanthropic funding or accelerator funding or any of that sort of stuff. So I thought that was definitely an interesting level of it. But I mean, it’s like there’s things that surprise you and don’t surprise you and things that should surprise you and things that shouldn’t surprise you, and I think that ultimately a lot of these folks just need money.
I think you raise an interesting point of the different types of ventures, their needs, their challenges, their barriers. In my head, and this may not be exactly true, but to the best of my knowledge, the types of people that are starting these different ventures may be different. The type of person who’s starting a small school in their community based on local need that they’ve identified is different than maybe someone who’s building an online curriculum for schools to use. It’s a different skillset, it’s a different background, it’s different technical elements, all of that sort of stuff.
So that’s part of where this survey, when you’re looking at these different groups, they could be quite different from one another. So at some point we kind of aggregate them all together and at some point we separate them out. But if you think about the sort of nature of what they’re doing and how the nature of those projects is different, it does make us think about these bigger questions about, we’ve put all of these people under an umbrella of educational entrepreneurs when what they’re doing could actually be quite different from one another.
John Kristof: That’s really helpful. On the topic of barriers, I think people in the policy space is immediately interested in a couple things. One, the funding mechanism, and trust me, we’ll get there, but the other is regulation. And you do ask a question about regulations that people face. And I’ll be perfectly honest, I look at the results from your questions about regulations and I don’t fully know what to make of them. I don’t know if the numbers are high, I don’t know if the numbers are low. I don’t know if I should be surprised by any of them. Are you surprised by any of the results you saw when it came to the regulation question? I guess I should say something like, the most frequently faced regulation being safety, fire and health department regulations, especially if you’re a school’s entrepreneur, that makes sense. But outside of maybe that level of obviousness, was there anything that surprised you in those results? I guess particularly for the question, is regulation a big problem for entrepreneurship and is there anything policy can be doing there?
Mike McShane: Yes. I think there’s a nuanced answer to that question, which is that, at least for the folks that I spoke to, there were a small number of people for whom regulations were a big deal, but for that small number of people, they were a big deal. I don’t know if that necessarily makes sense. Which was, it wasn’t like you had a whole bunch of people who said that regulation wasn’t a big deal, you had a small number of people, but it was very intense for them. And what makes me think of that is that what I may have been capturing is sort of ventures at different stages in their life cycle. So if you are starting a small school, that’s sort of the paradigmatic thing that I’m thinking about because I think it’s somewhere, 60, 70% of the people who responded to this were starting a school. You may not care early in your venture about some of these broader regulatory issues.
When you want to start your second site or when you want to move to a different state, or when you want to grow or get bigger or you suddenly start to butt heads with the local school district or something like that, that might become a bigger deal. And when it becomes a bigger deal, it becomes a bigger deal all at once. So I think that that’s one of the things that I took away from asking these questions and getting the answers to these questions was that it’s important to be a little bit more specific and thoughtful when we talk about education, because I think sometimes we think that sort of all ventures at all of their stages will think about, care about, respond to regulation in the same way and it could be that that’s not the case. And that’s not to say that regulation doesn’t matter or it does matter or is important or isn’t important, but what they’re doing, when in their life cycle they’re doing it, where they’re doing it matters.
John Kristof: I think that’s a great nuance to point out and definitely a good takeaway for listeners here. Another policy area to talk about here, I think is funding mechanism. Now, just about everybody that listens to the EdChoice Podcast probably knows this has been a big year for school choice and school choice supporters. ESA programs on universal scales are getting past left and right. If a couple of years ago was the year of educational choice, this is the year of universal choice.
So there’s big changes in big momentum shifts happening in the education space, specifically when it comes to education savings accounts and education savings accounts are a very exciting alternative and a very popular alternative, no matter whom you ask, whether it’s teachers, parents, the general public, doesn’t matter the demographics, ESAs are an unusually popular idea. And it seems like one of the reasons why is because it’s not just about schools, it’s about supplemental services, it’s about resources and it’s about customization. And it’s hard to hear about educational entrepreneurship and the different projects that people are creating and not think about how these monies and these programs could be useful for them.
So with that in mind, and I’m just kind of stating what I’m sure many people in our audience here has been thinking and probably been waiting for us to talk about, in this changing education landscape, specifically when it comes to ESAs and school choice, how do you see those things affecting the entrepreneurs who you surveyed? And I’ll add one twist before I finally let you talk, you asked in an earlier question, earlier in the survey, what led people to create the product in the particular state that they have created the product in. And 5% said that it was because of availability of public funds. Now, that could be for a variety of reasons, there could be a variety of explanations for that. I think people in the school choice space would expect that number to jump up quite a bit with the changes in policies and stuff like that. But do you see it the same way? How do you see these people fitting into the changing school choice landscape?
Mike McShane: Yes. So it’s sort of two answers to what you said that I’ll try to weave together here. The first one is, and it was something I left out when I was talking about the funding sources. So I mentioned that folks talked about dipping into personal funds and friends and family. The actual second most popular answer for where you’re getting money from was tuition. And I think more than half of the ventures that we looked at said that they were using tuition. And given that 60 or 70% are schools, we would imagine that a large amount of the funding from the schools is charging tuition. So obviously having access to public funds will change that. It’ll change who those schools are able to serve, how they’re able to serve them. Because right now, if people are having to pay that out of pocket, that’s going to limit who’s able to participate in them. So I think that that’s an important point and will definitely shift this.
Now the second part of your question is really interesting to me because it sort of in the same way, makes us think about who is participating in these programs and where they are in their life cycle. I think the entrepreneurs that we’re talking about here, I think, even as someone who studied this, I’m sort of guilty of stereotyping myself, of stereotyping entrepreneurs, of thinking of them as sort of pursuing a kind of grand strategy of sitting down and saying, “I want to become an entrepreneur and therefore I’m going to do a complicated market analysis. And I’m going to figure out where…” I think of watching, what was the movie about the founding of McDonald’s with Ray Kroc? I can’t remember the story. It has Ryan from The Office and Michael Keaton.
John Kristof: I can’t remember. I was about to say “Super Size Me”, and that’s the wrong McDonald’s movie.
Mike McShane: Yeah, someone’s going to shout this at me. But it showed this great strategy that was pursued of understanding how to grow McDonald’s and all of these things. But for a lot of these folks, I think I’ll sound like a broken record on these, but I don’t want to say they’re accidental entrepreneurs, but they are people who were originally teachers or others recognize some sort of need and say, “We’re going to create something to solve it.” And it’s very local, we’re going to fix it right here. This is a problem in my community with my kids. And so if it’s like, “Oh, well, did you know that Arizona is much more supportive of educational entrepreneurs?” The answer is sort of like, “Well, I don’t live in Arizona. My kids don’t live in Arizona. My community’s not in Arizona. I’m trying to fix something here.” So I think that that better understanding at least of this sort of group of people, I think is helpful for folks. Sure, maybe some bigger networks. So once these things have hit scale, if they want to, some folks might say, “I want to start a microschool. All I’ve ever want to do is educate 15 kids, and that’s what I’m doing.” Personally, I think that’s awesome and that’s great. You should do what you’re good at, and you should do it to the best of your abilities. But insofar some people say, “Hey, I want to grow. I want to create a network. I want to expand.” Again, that’s when I think those sorts of things become second-order questions.
Now, do I think that this’ll create more fertile ground, and maybe more people will start to become entrepreneurs? Part of the downside of any survey that you do… So this is a survey of entrepreneurs. Who I didn’t survey is people who maybe wanted to be entrepreneurs but didn’t. They hit some sort of… So I’m getting the people who are identifying barriers, but they have overcome those barriers or they’re in the process of overcoming those barriers. I didn’t get a chance to talk to all the people who hit a barrier and quit or it didn’t work out or whatever. So it’s important to remember that sort of omitted part of the sample.
So look, I think it’s going to be much more fruitful space for people to work in. Maybe more people will choose to get in there. And even if that’s not the case, I think these organizations and institutions are already working. It’s going to change who they’re able to serve. If right now, they’re serving people who are able to pay for private school tuition, now they’re going to be able to serve people who can do that with support.
John Kristof: That’s a really great answer. And just to jump back to the earlier part of your answer, I draw people’s attention to the demographics here a little bit again, just to again have an understanding of who these people are. The vast majority of these people do not have any sort of business background. 16% of people got a degree in business, but everyone else is in education and child development or got into education from those other areas. So these are people who have been in the education space or in the social services space and have seen a need and felt like they had a way to help address a problem in their community. It makes sense that they would want to be in their community.
Because we’re in an early stage of a lot of these things, hopefully, over time, we can see what works really well and things can scale up, as you say, and networks can be created and go to all the different states where the different money is available. We are running up on time here. I know I’ve been drawing attention to specific parts of the survey and results so far. I’ll give you a chance for a last word, or if there’s anything else you want people to know about the survey that we haven’t talked about yet, about a result, or what you hope takeaways are, or who you hope reads the survey. Any final thoughts?
Mike McShane: Well, I started with an Office reference, so maybe I’ll end with an Office reference. I believe it was someone asked Dwight Schrute what was the best advice he ever got, and he said, “Michael Scott told him, ‘KISS, keep it simple, stupid.'” And I’m going to butcher it, but he said something like, “It devastated me, but it’s true.” But I think in some ways, there’s a lot of interesting stuff in this paper, but to keep it simple, stupid is just the centrality of funding. If we want lower-income people to become entrepreneurs, they need capital. I mean, I should take that back. Anybody who wants to become an entrepreneur needs access to capital. The more money you have, the easier it is to get even more money. It’s a sort of sad paradox of this that you have people who don’t have access to money but have great ideas, can’t get them off the ground.
So look, I obviously want to shout out VELA, not just for helping us with this survey, but they’re someone who’s stepping up to try and fix that problem. Giving small grants, not massive grants to folks, but small grants to people to help get them started, to help get them off the ground, I think that that’s a really interesting point that’s part of it. Again, I just think that’s something that we should be thinking about. I know lots of conferences and get-togethers, people are talking about, “How can we get more people to become educational entrepreneurs? How can we get people to take this leap?” They need money. They need money. Sure, I’m all for and you could read my work for years on things like regulation, on things like public policy programs. All of that sort of stuff is true, and I don’t want to sort of downplay that. All of those things make life easier for entrepreneurs. That’s a good thing. But fundamentally, they need financial support to get off the ground.
John Kristof: So often it really does come down to money, no matter how you spin it. So that’s probably a good word to end on. Once again, everyone, we’ve been talking about Mike McShane’s new report, “Surveying Educational Entrepreneurs: The Headwinds and Tailwinds to Building New Educational Enterprises”. You can read it for yourself on the EdChoice website, on our research library, edchoice.org. For now, Mike, thank you very much for joining, sharing your expertise, and for your very, very timely pop culture references as always. There’s also a share of those in the report itself.
Mike McShane: My 10-year-old references.
John Kristof: Yeah. I think it’s great. I mean, I will also say this is the first research paper that I have ever seen that essentially ends on a Simpsons reference. So you’ll have to read the paper for yourself to catch that one as well, but it made me smile. In the meantime, everyone, thank you so much for spending your time with us. We always appreciate your support. Thank you to Mike. Thank you to Jacob Vinson, our wonderful podcast producer and art director here at EdChoice. He always does a great job making us sound better and more coherent than we actually are. Enjoy the rest of your day wherever you are. We look forward to talking with you again next time on EdChoice Chats.